In an attemp ---> confusion regarding parallelism

This topic has expert replies
Legendary Member
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:16 am
Thanked: 77 times
Followed by:49 members

by atulmangal » Mon May 23, 2011 9:05 pm
bubbliiiiiiii wrote:
has developed and provides can not be parallel because they represent different tense????....because "firm" can be a possible antecedent of "provides" but its not logical, "farm is logical".
I am not sure why have you tried to parallel 'has developed' and 'provides'.

My line of reasoning was,

In an attempt to produce premium oysters, a firm in Scotland has developed a prototype of a submersible oyster farm that


sits below the surface of the ocean
and
provides ideal conditions for the mollusks' growth.

Please help me understand incase I am wrong.

Modifier, Subject-Verb, Subordinate clause whose subject is farm

Okay, let me show u what i wanna ask: consider GMAT prep problem, OP D

Original Op D:

Most of the purported health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds that are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C and that inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

Now, i modify this option and remove the THAT (in green) after AND

Most of the purported health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds that are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C and inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

Is this modified version still correct and will be read same as original Op D???? here the subject of the verb "inhibit" is "compounds" or "Most of the purported health benefits"?????

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 979
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:38 am
Location: Hyderabad, India
Thanked: 49 times
Followed by:12 members
GMAT Score:700

by bubbliiiiiiii » Mon May 23, 2011 9:14 pm
Is this modified version still correct
In my opinion .. Yes.
here the subject of the verb "inhibit" is "compounds" or "Most of the purported health benefits"?????
Compounds because the parallel parts 'are found' and 'inhibit' appears to be characteristics of compounds.

whereas, when we compare the activity 'inhibit' to 'come from' it doesnot give me a meaning because, in my opinion, the 'inhibit' stuff is a benefit of tea but the statement here conveys the meaning that benefits themselves inhibit something, which is inappropriate.
Regards,

Pranay

Legendary Member
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:16 am
Thanked: 77 times
Followed by:49 members

by atulmangal » Mon May 23, 2011 10:15 pm
bubbliiiiiiii wrote:
Is this modified version still correct
In my opinion .. Yes.
here the subject of the verb "inhibit" is "compounds" or "Most of the purported health benefits"?????
Compounds because the parallel parts 'are found' and 'inhibit' appears to be characteristics of compounds.

whereas, when we compare the activity 'inhibit' to 'come from' it doesnot give me a meaning because, in my opinion, the 'inhibit' stuff is a benefit of tea but the statement here conveys the meaning that benefits themselves inhibit something, which is inappropriate.
I know about the meaning part, thats why i said why Op C is wrong earlier.

The only confusion was related to parallelism and for record m still not convinced, i still believe in Op D, after AND THAT is necessary!!!

I'm putting this question separately now, to see the opinion of people...

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 3:13 am
atulmangal wrote:Hi Ron,

Thanks for your post, having some problem with my browser so can't access the class you suggest rite now but i will definitely attend in night after re-installation. You suggest that even without THAT after AND, still the subject of the VERB "provides" is "oyster farm" NOT the "firm"...right??
"that" modifiers can freely modify either NOUN2 or NOUN1 + prep + NOUN2.
therefore, you could assign that particular modifier (the modifier "that sits ... and provides...") to either "prototype" or "farm". in this instance the distinction is irrelevant, because the prototype IS the farm -- i.e., both of these nouns are referring to exactly the same thing, so you don't have to worry about differentiating between them.

if there *is* a difference, then you have to use common sense to assign the "that" modifier correctly.
example:
i invented a new way of teaching european languages that will revolutionize the educational industry
--> here, the underlined modifier modifies "a new way (of teaching...)" -- because it wouldn't make sense to say that the languages themselves will revolutionize the industry.
i invented a new way of teaching european languages that are difficult for travelers to learn
--> here, the underlined modifier modifies "european languages"; in this case, you could figure this out either by common sense or by noting that "are" is plural.

Most of the proposed health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C, and [Most of the proposed health benefits of tea] inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

so if u notice the subject for the verb "inhibit" its clearly wrong...its the compounds that inhibit....
your thought process here is mostly accurate.
however, even if the subject made sense, this sentence still wouldn't be properly constructed -- if a modifier opens with a dash, then it has to close with another dash.
so, since this version of the sentence contains "compounds also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C" as a modifier, you'd have to replace the comma after this modifier with another dash.

note that you don't have to do this in the correct version of the sentence, because the modifier in the correct version goes all the way to the end of the sentence. i.e., you don't need the dash at the end of that modifier, because that modifier ends at the end of the whole sentence.
Op D: the word THAT after and is referring to COMPOUNDS using THAT and THAT parallelism...
yes.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 3:17 am
bubbliiiiiiii wrote:I just attended the video recording of Ron's lecture on parallelism and thus was curious to try to answer the question here. My intention is to apply my understanding from the lecture and get it evaluated from Ron while helping him to answer your question. Hope that sounds fine. :)
sure
Op C: if u elaborate the structure

Most of the proposed health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C, and [Most of the proposed health benefits of tea] inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

so if u notice the subject for the verb "inhibit" its clearly wrong...its the compounds that inhibit....
I believe yes.

Question rephrased with Option C:
Most of the purported health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C, and inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

Paralellism indicator, AND. Since there is no indicator on the left side of hand, we have to move right to left to determine what parallels the non-underlined portion after 'and'.

Non-underlined portion after AND: inhibit the formation ...

so we have to scan the left side to AND to find a parallel structure of inhibit.

We see, come from antioxidants-compounds is parallel to inhibit the formation .... Since the subject of left part of and is health benefits it is also applicable to right part of AND and logically, health benefits cannot inhibit anything, thus C is wrong.[/quote]

this looks good.

note the additional consideration concerning punctuation (in the post that appears directly above this one).

Op D: the word THAT after and is referring to COMPOUNDS using THAT and THAT parallelism...
Yes again.

Option D:
come from antioxidants-compounds that are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C and that

Applying the same logic as above with AND being parallel indicator and moving from right to left we see that both parts of AND need word THAT because the RIGHT part contains the word THAT in option. This is similar to what you have said 'THAT and THAT parallelism'.
yeah
Moreover,

Here
activity 1, are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C is a characteristic of the compounds
,and
activity 2, inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels is another characteristic of compounds.

Since, while maintaining parallelism we have to make sure that the idea/activity that is given in supposed parallel parts of the sentence should convey the same thought.
very nice analysis!

for some extra reinforcement of the whole idea of "parallel thoughts", think about the hand gestures you would probably make while delivering this message orally.
you obviously wouldn't use perfect grammar, but you would probably make 2 similar hand gestures with these 2 statements (like "number one", "number two") -- just to underscore the whole idea that you are making 2 similar points.
in general, if you would make such hand gestures in delivering the message orally, then the ideas are probably parallel; if such hand gestures would be awkward or would make no sense, then the ideas probably aren't supposed to be parallel.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 3:22 am
bubbliiiiiiii wrote:
Isn't the 2 questions (gmat prep one and given Q) are similar in structure???
I am not sure whether the two question are similar or not, but I will post my working on question 1.

Please evaluate.

In an attempt to produce premium oysters, a firm in Scotland has developed a prototype of a submersible oyster farm, sitting below the surface of the ocean, and it provides ideal conditions for the mollusks' growth.
A. farm, sitting below the surface of the ocean, and it provides - it provides needs it sits.
B. farm, sitting below the surface of the ocean for providing
C. farm that sits below the surface of the ocean and providing
Providing needs sitting
D. farm that sits below the surface of the ocean and provides
E. farm that is sitting below the surface of the ocean and it provides - it provides needs it sits.

Between B and D.

B has verb+ing, which is given less priority thus, D.

Please let me know if there is any strong reason for eliminating B.
great analysis again -- it appears that you've learned the lessons of that lecture quite well. nice job!

as far as choice (b) goes, "for providing" isn't idiomatic.
if you want the sentence to say that the farm is located in this place with the specific purpose of providing ideal conditions, then you could use "...to provide...", but not "...for providing...".

the easier way to eliminate (b) is to realize that it contains COMMA + -ING (... comma + SITTING).
remember how these modifiers work -- they apply to the action of the preceding clause, and the action of the -ING should apply most directly to the subject of the preceding clause.
therefore, option (b) is suggesting that the business itself ("a firm in scotland") is actually sitting underwater!
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 3:25 am
Atul:
atulmangal wrote:Original Op D:

Most of the purported health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds that are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C and that inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

Now, i modify this option and remove the THAT (in green) after AND

Most of the purported health benefits of tea come from antioxidants-compounds that are also found in beta carotene, vitamin E, and vitamin C and inhibit the formation of plaque along the body's blood vessels.

Is this modified version still correct and will be read same as original Op D???? here the subject of the verb "inhibit" is "compounds" or "Most of the purported health benefits"?????
your revised option is still correct, but it's a lot harder to read.

i.e., if you want to get really technical, then, yes, the second "that" is unnecessary -- but the parallel elements in this case are so long that the extra "that" helps to re-orient the reader's perspective.

this is a stylistic thing -- you will not be faced with the choice between the two versions, as both are ultimately correct.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Tue May 24, 2011 5:44 am
lunarpower wrote:You could assign that particular modifier (the modifier "that sits ... and provides...") to either "prototype" or "farm". in this instance the distinction is irrelevant, because the prototype IS the farm -- i.e., both of these nouns are referring to exactly the same thing, so you don't have to worry about differentiating between them.

if there *is* a difference, then you have to use common sense to assign the "that" modifier correctly.
Ron Sir, could you explain how both these nouns refer to the same thing. From how I interpret, it could either mean:

I There is a submersible oyster farm that sits below the surface of the ocean. Firm has developed a prototype of this submersible oyster farm.

II. There is a submersible oyster farm. Firm has developed a prototype of this submersible oyster farm. The prototype sits below the surface of the ocean.

I don't see how I and II are same in meaning; and since they are different, I think "that" should be used in both parts.

Also, could you please refer me to an Official guide example that illustrates that the usage of "that" is optional.

Regards.
Manav.

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 5:53 am
iongmat wrote:
lunarpower wrote:Ron Sir, could you explain how both these nouns refer to the same thing. From how I interpret, it could either mean:

I There is a submersible oyster farm that sits below the surface of the ocean. Firm has developed a prototype of this submersible oyster farm.

II. There is a submersible oyster farm. Firm has developed a prototype of this submersible oyster farm. The prototype sits below the surface of the ocean.
if both of these interpretations were reasonable then you would have a valid point here, but (i) is not reasonable. you must use common sense to ascertain the meaning of SC sentences!

an "oyster farm" is a man-made thing; "farms" are not things that occur in nature.
therefore, the only viable interpretation is (ii), in which the prototype and the farm are the same thing.
Also, could you please refer me to an Official guide example that illustrates that the usage of "that" is optional.
cf. OG12 DIAGNOSTIC #50 (a standardized way of distributing songs and full-length recordings on the Internet that...)
... in which you have to use common sense to determine that "that" is the way of distributing songs (and is neither the songs themselves nor the internet).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Tue May 24, 2011 7:14 am
Sir, I think GMAT is really expecting too much from students, if it believes that students would be able to logically interpret that I. is not reasonable :D. The farm sits below the ocean and so, the firm has developed prototype (say to conduct some experiments, since it would be "inconvenient" at the very least, to conduct experiments on the submerged farm :P ).

But my point was not that Sir. What I was wondering was that without the second "that", "sits below the surface of the ocean" could refer to "prototype" and "provides ideal conditions for the mollusks' growth" could refer to "farm" or vice versa. When we use "that", we are ensuring that both of these parts of the sentence are referring to the "same thing" (whatever it is).

Apologies if "mollusks" also have a role to play in understanding the meaning of this sentence. I do not know what they are :roll: .

Lastly Sir, I looked at Question Number 50. In this question, if "foil" was referring to "internet", then it should have been "foils". Since it is "foil", it has to be "will foil" and so, "that" has no significance here. So, basically, from parallelism, the structure here is not involving "that", but of the nature: "...will X and Y".

Hope I am not missing something basic here.

If I am still not able to understand,I will not bother you further. :cry:

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed May 25, 2011 4:48 am
iongmat wrote:Sir, I think GMAT is really expecting too much from students, if it believes that students would be able to logically interpret that I. is not reasonable :D. The farm sits below the ocean and so, the firm has developed prototype (say to conduct some experiments, since it would be "inconvenient" at the very least, to conduct experiments on the submerged farm :P ).
i don't really know what to say here, other than that the GMAT definitely does expect students to interpret statements in the most reasonable way -- for many reasons, but mostly because commonsense interpretation is something that is required literally every hour of every day in any management-related job.
i think the problem may lie in your use of the word "logical" (highlighted in purple, above). i'm not 100% sure, but, when i see that word, it seems that you're saying that there should be logical rules that circumscribe and determine the properly intended meaning of every sentence you're going to encounter on the test.
there are definitely no such rules -- human common sense is much too subtle to be reduced to any memorizable set of rules. (in fact, human intuition is so subtle that the entire effort to program it into machines, also known as "strong artificial intelligence", has thus far been a miserable failure despite decades of research and trillions of dollars of development funding.)

so, if you mean the word "logical" literally (i.e., in reference to actual logical rules), then there is no way that's going to be happening. you just have to take your normal, real-world intuition and use it to determine the meaning of the sentence.
i.e., if you saw this sentence while you were randomly reading a newspaper, i'm quite sure that you would immediately come to the conclusion that it means (ii) above, and i sincerely doubt that interpretation (i) would even occur to you.
the problem arises when people suddenly shut off that sort of intuition on the gmat -- just because the gmat is an "academic" task (this is a very common problem; people tend not to use much common sense when dealing with anything school-ish) -- and then start coming up with all sorts of alternative interpretations that just aren't reasonable from a real-world standpoint.

do you work as a programmer?
if so, then that also contributes to the problem -- because programmers have to consider every possible state of a program, and every possible action that would generate a bug, without concern for the probability that these things will actually happen. in other words, programmers have to treat all potential crashes (and all potential user states) with the same priority, regardless of how likely (or unlikely) those events might be.
the reason this is a problem is that it's an absolutely awful way to approach management (your presumed eventual goal, if you're studying for the gmat).
management is always an exercise in interpreting people's actions and words in the most likely / most probable commonsense way, and in choosing the most probable route to success in situations with thousands of possible variables (while ignoring sufficiently improbable or unreasonable possibilities).

some people have extreme difficulty with one or the other of these viewpoints.
most people, for instance, have extreme trouble coming up with unlikely alternative interpretations (such as (i)) at all; they will always interpret things in the most probable commonsense way, even if the explicit wording suggests otherwise. these people would be absolutely horrible programmers, but they tend to do very well in "people" jobs, especially when those jobs are cross-cultural and therefore constantly involve inferring what someone meant to say even though their actual words say something else.
other people think in a way that simply produces every possible interpretation of a sentence/command/statement/whatever, with little or no thought given to prioritizing the likelihood of each interpretation. these people are often the world's best programmers (because that's how programming works), but most of them also find any sort of "human factors"-type work extremely arduous and difficult because their mindset is too literal and not intuitive enough.

so:
put yourself in the mindset of someone who is not taking a test, but, rather, encountering this sentence in some sort of newspaper that you're just randomly reading in real life.
do you now see that (ii) is definitely the intended meaning -- regardless of the initial arrangement of the words -- and that (i) is an extremely remote possibility?
Last edited by lunarpower on Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed May 25, 2011 4:48 am
But my point was not that Sir. What I was wondering was that without the second "that", "sits below the surface of the ocean" could refer to "prototype" and "provides ideal conditions for the mollusks' growth" could refer to "farm" or vice versa. When we use "that", we are ensuring that both of these parts of the sentence are referring to the "same thing" (whatever it is).
ok, i understand now -- no, this is not the case.
if you have a parallel structure of the form "VERB and VERB" (or "VERB or VERB"), then both verbs automatically refer to the same subject.

if the subject changes, then that change of subject MUST be indicated by one of the following two things:
1) (most commonly) each verb is preceded by its actual subject ("SUBJ1 VERB1 and SUBJ2 VERB2")
2) the sentence uses a word, such as "respectively", whose explicit function is to sequence things in this way ("My father and my uncle, respectively, tend to understate and exaggerate" --> this sentence means that my father exaggerates things while my uncle exaggerates things)
Apologies if "mollusks" also have a role to play in understanding the meaning of this sentence. I do not know what they are :roll: .
mollusks are a class of animals. there are lots of different kinds of mollusks, but in this case the oysters mentioned earlier in the sentence are the desired mollusks.
even if you don't know that word, this is another thing that you should be able to figure out just by looking at the structure of the sentence. the context is that the firm is attempting "to produce premium oysters", and is therefore doing things that "provide ideal conditions for the _______' growth".
the ______ clearly must refer to oysters; if it referred to anything else, the sentence would make no sense.
Lastly Sir, I looked at Question Number 50. In this question, if "foil" was referring to "internet", then it should have been "foils". Since it is "foil", it has to be "will foil" and so, "that" has no significance here. So, basically, from parallelism, the structure here is not involving "that", but of the nature: "...will X and Y".
no, i meant that as an illustration of the fact that "that" doesn't have to modify the noun that's right next to it (i.e., it can also modify nouns that are further away).
see above for the discussion of "VERB and VERB" -- i can tell you with 100% confidence that this is a fact. in fact, it's the basic essence of parallelism -- whenever you have "X and Y", both X and Y must fit into the sentence in the same grammatical and logical way. therefore, further OG references are unnecessary -- that's how it works.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Wed May 25, 2011 5:13 am
Thanks for the very very elaborate reply. Will take me a day or two to read these thoroughly; if I still have any questions, will get back to you.

Thanks again for the tremendous effort. I am actually amazed.

Regards.

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 am
Thanked: 6 times
Followed by:1 members

by iongmat » Wed May 25, 2011 8:36 am
Ron Sir, not to belabor, but following example in OG Verbal caught my attention:

In the 1980s the largest single provider of day care for children was the federal government, which offered child care, health, and educational services to hundreds of thousands of children from poor households through the Head Start program and which supported private day-care facilities through child-care tax credits, state block grants, and tax breaks for employers who subsidized day-care services.

The OE says: Because the second example is given as a relative clause beginning with which supported private, the first example must be similarly presented The opening statement must therefore present government as the predicate noun so that which clearly refers to government in both of the examples.

Does it have something to do with which (that the above statement uses) Vs that.

I am finding this quite tough, but hopefully others are also benefiting with this conversation.

Legendary Member
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:16 am
Thanked: 77 times
Followed by:49 members

by atulmangal » Wed May 25, 2011 10:41 am
@Ron,

Thank you so much Ron. The patience with which you explained, i don't have words to describe that. I believe i'm lucky as m getting clarity over concepts, undoubtedly from the best expert.

From past two months m continuously working on the meaning part and that's why now i'm comfortable with that. Here in these questions i have no issues with the meaning. I actually thought (confused) that we must use THAT to avoid any ambiguity regarding the subject of the verb. I thought that there are strict rules in this case and we have to follow. In sum, my actual doubt was this, as @iongmat mentioned in his post:
What I was wondering was that without the second "that", "sits below the surface of the ocean" could refer to "prototype" and "provides ideal conditions for the mollusks' growth" could refer to "farm" or vice versa. When we use "that", we are ensuring that both of these parts of the sentence are referring to the "same thing" (whatever it is).

May be, earlier i haven't explained my doubt clearly, but now i got your point and i will update my knowledge.

Thanks again Ron (you are the best)!!!

@Pranay

Thanks a lot for participating in this discussion.